Salamun aleykum guys
I'm new to this community so if any mistakes are made, please let me know.
I wrote a paper on this issue in length but on this post, I would just like to make a few short points and we'll take it from there.
I dont know what your views are on this but I am of the opinion that there is no "5 times a day ritual prayer" in the Quran. As far as my research has taken me the word "Salat" means following closely/adhering. In the Quran I've found this to be either general (all the things God wants us to ahdere to/adhering to God in general) or something specific within the context of the Ayah.
No doubt you have heard some of these already but I will share a couple of the problematic translations that occur, if we take "Salat" to mean ritual prayer.
-[Ahzab 56: Verily, God and His angels bless the Prophet: [hence,] O you who have attained to faith, bless him and give yourselves up [to his guidance] in utter self-surrender! (Asad)]
As you can see from this translation, Salat, which is supposed to mean ritual prayer, has suddenly turned into blessing. The only reason for this is of course had it been translated consistently, Allah and His Angels would be "praying" to the Prophet. Not grammer or that Salat ever meant blessing. Had the ayah switched the words Allah and Prophet, you can bet your bottom dollar that "Salat" in this verse would have been translated to "prayer". (The mistranslation of this verse is also the reason why people say SAW after they pronounce Prophet Mohammads name)
-[Hud 87: "Said they: "O Shu'ayb! Does thy [habit of] praying compel thee to demand of us that we give up all that our forefathers were wont to worship, or that we refrain from doing whatever we please with our possessions? Behold, [thou wouldst have us believe that] thou art indeed the only clement, the only right-minded man!" (Asad)]
It is clear Asad here has noticed the illogical statement and has tried to salvage the situation by inserting (habit of) and "compel thee " etc but the verse says COMMAND (amr) i.e " does your prayer command us...". Other translators put (deen) or (ibadah) in brackets for the same reason and most miss it altogether and leave it as prayer. The verse doesnt say deen or ibadah or habit of. It says Salat. As Im sure you've all noticed this doesn't make sense as PRAYER CANNOT COMMAND. Translators usually change Salat to a few other things, rather than orayer when it clearly doesn't make sense, like in Ahzab 56, however in this verse, it can slip by them as the error may not be clear at first glance. Another nonsense translation. How can Prophet Shu'aybs prayer command Prophet Shu'ayb himself?!?
Another point is, Im sure you all know, Wudu in the Quran is very detailed. Wash from here to here, wipe here and here. Its very precise and detailed. However we find no such thing for Salat. God calls the Quran, complete, detailed and explained. He says He left nothing out. Why would God explain the wash procedure before the ritual in such detail and then say nothing about the actual prayer ritual much less in detail. There is no verse that even tells us how to do this supposed ritual prayer. People just pick random verses that contain the words "Sajdah and Ruku" that are talking about something else entirely to piece together, like Frankensteins monster, a ritual prayer that simply does not exist. The only verse where we find "Sajdah Ruku and Salat" together is Bakarah 125 and it has nothing to do with any ritual prayer.
Salat is so important that it says in Al Muddathir 41-42: "What has landed you in hell? They will reply, we were not of those that prayed (Salat)".
So Salat is so important that it can land us in Hell but God hasn't told us how to perform it, though he calls the Quran complete and detailed? It doesn't make sense.
There are other points to make but I think this is a good start. Please let me know if any mistakes are made. Looking forward to hearing your views.
Regards
Cihan
dahir barre
this topic was discussed before may be it help
Salah (marvelousquran.org)
Aamir alRumi
I am unable to open this link either.
GuIfam DhiIlon
Alhamdulilah, salaamun Alaykum. Rabanna, please provide for all of our brothers and sisters an increase in khair (understanding), rizqan hasana (insightful sustenance), and 3ilm (evidence-based knowledge). This journey provides tranquility to the qalb and provides an optimistic view for our worldview. It is indeed a 'sarh' that is paved with secrets that stick to the core. I welcome you to enjoy and be enriched in this secure place of learning, inshallah.
This topic, inshallah, will be discussed in the future in detail but many hints have been dropped here and there.
Cihan Buyukbas
Salam Addy
Bit of both. The whole thing is from self study but some examples within are from other sources. The first person I came across claiming ritual prayer didnt exist in the Quran was from the translation of Sam Gerrans, he translates it as duty but I dont fully agree. Of course all knowledge is from God.
I went through all the occurrences of Salat in the Quran and I believe the word to mean following closely/adhering. All of our work is a result of learning from each other what God has given us in knowledge which is why I joined this community. I am hoping to share what Ive come across and hoping to learn from you all also.
Peace.
Cihan
Salaamun Alayikum Cohan,
Please watch this amazing segment regarding your questions. Timeline: 1:17:08
https://youtu.be/7nQPxKWZArY?si=EzfAfJIVMOAfMnX9
Cihan Buyukbas
Good morning Pathseeker
I have done both. Someone else alerted me to what Dr Hany said about Salat in one of the earlier replies and Ive replied to it. This was the reply
["The times of Salat where he says one in the morning etc is in 2nd person singular. God is speaking directly to the Prophet. Those are sessions in which the Prophet delivers the message of the Quran. In Surah Nisa God tells the believers to shorten these sessions and then to return to how they've been told to do it (two ends of the day) once they feel safe i.e the battle is over.
Isra 79 where God tells the Prophet that the night reading is for him alone shows that the first two are done with a crowd. The night time reading for the Prophet alone, where others dont have to join is alluded to in Al Muzzammil 20 where God says Prophet and his close compaions study and read the Quran late into the night/morning."]
On top, In Ahzab 56-57 it says, God and His Angels "Yusalli" the Messenger and asks us to "Salli" also. Dr Hany, in short, says "Salat is something God does to us" but from the top of my head, that definition doesnt fit here. Though Im sure he'll go into more detail in the future and clarify.
Dr Hany and I seem to be in in agreement that Salat is in no way a 5 time ritual prayer. Those are my short responses to what he claims it means. I think this will go a lot faster if you just told me what information in the video segment and in Dr Hanys reply, which you find disproves what I've claimed. Im guessing from your response that you agree with Dr Hany and maybe you didn't see I replied to it already.
Looking forward to your reply mate.
Regards
Yahya .
I wrote about this - salat and the definitive form of salat (SLW) are different.
https://yahya-j408.medium.com/debunking-kashif-khans-interpretation-of-salat-e300641e85eb
Salam alaikyum
Cihan Buyukbas
Salam Yahya
The prefix al- coming in front of any word does not change its meaning entirely. I mean this comment section is not sufficent for us to go into a full debate over every verse but you can't use Salat (al- prefix or no) as ritual prayer when the verse make sense and then use whatever fits ones narrative when it doesnt.
There are numerous problematic verses if we take Salat to mean ritual prayer. Even without going into specitic verses ,the Quran doesnt tell one how to perform these ritual prayers. God calls the Quran, complete and detailed. God says He left nothinf out from the Quran yet "ablution" is there very detailed and specific but there is nothing on how to perform Salat.
"Didn't people know for 1400 years but this guy did" is an argument used by disbelievers against the Prophets. Blindly following ones forefathers is something seriously warned against in the Quran, which is what Ritual Prayers are. People just following what their forefathers did.
Not that I agree with this KK person you criticised. Rememberance has a word in the Quran and that word id "Dhikr".
Peace
Cihan
Aamir alRumi
Salamun Alaykum
Cihan Buyukbas
Thank you for sharing this. I would love to read your research paper, if that's ok with you. I can share my email ID (so that you can share your paper), if that does not violate
Marvelous Quran 's rules.
Cihan Buyukbas
Aleykum Selam Aamir
I'll share my email and if anyone wants it they can send me an email and I can send it to them. If for some reason its not allowed then the admin can delete the comment.
Buyukbas.c@gmail.com
It's the first draft so there are some amendments to be made. Looking forward to your input.
Regards
Cihan